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I'm seeing a trend here with these scatological accusations.
How did I do that?
Those were to reply to the ones that you had made and not striving to muddle the discussion with the gish-galloping tactics.
I was still looking into one or two Anne Frank diary claims and articles but you've posted a few handfuls of new holocaust links.
The text relies on the fact that most readers will not look up the actual court records of R. v. ZĂŒndel. By framing a legal victory for free speech as a victory for historical truth, the text creates a false impression of what happened in the courtroom.
I just popped in and looked at that Anne Frank diary claim.
"To be clear, 'Gish Galloping' isn't a psychiatric term; itâs a rhetorical one. It describes the tactic of overwhelming an opponent with so many half-truths or rapid-fire points that they can't possibly address them all. Iâm not interested in 'diagnosing' youâIâm interested in having a focused, one-point-at-a-time conversation.
I use these terms because they are the standard 'rules of the road' for logical discourse, much like:
- The Straw Man: Misrepresenting an argument to make it easier to attack (like calling logic 'psychiatry').
- Ad Hominem: Attacking the person instead of the argument.
- The Slippery Slope: Claiming one small step will inevitably lead to a chain of bad events.
- The Red Herring: Introducing irrelevant info to distract from the main point.
- Confirmation Bias: Only seeking out information that proves what you already believe.
Below is an interesting analysis of this thread. Is it true? Something to be concious of, concerned of, or have "they" programmed AI to lie like this?
Does the fact that powerful AI is able to read through massive amounts of texts and discussions change online discourse?
Would be interesting to see decision makers do their croaking (debating) and have AI fact check them/point out any logical fallacies in realtime.
1. High-Abstraction Overview
The thread operates as a closed ideological loop. It is framed not as a historical inquiry, but as an "uncovering of truth" against a perceived global conspiracy. The overarching narrative is that the Holocaust is a fabricated eventâa "hoax"âdesigned to serve the interests of "Zionist" entities.
The discourse is characterized by rejectionist historiography: rather than engaging with the totality of the historical record, the participants focus on minute, isolated technical or logistical details to claim the entire event is impossible, thereby attempting to invalidate the testimony of survivors and the documentation of the perpetrators.
2. Logical Fallacies
The thread relies heavily on several persistent logical fallacies to maintain its narrative:
- Cherry-Picking (Suppressed Evidence): Participants focus on specific, often debunked, technical claims (e.g., the chemistry of Zyklon B or the design of crematoria) while ignoring the massive volume of corroborating evidence, such as demographic shifts, German bureaucratic records, and physical evidence from multiple sites.
- Shifting the Burden of Proof: Instead of providing a coherent alternative history for where millions of people went, the posters demand that historians prove every single detail with "absolute" certainty, claiming that any minor discrepancy or lack of a specific document (e.g., a "signed order from Hitler") invalidates the entire historical event.
- Argument from Ignorance (Argumentum ad Ignorantiam): The claim that "because I cannot imagine how this was done" or "because I haven't seen a specific photo of X," then X must not have happened.
- Appeal to False Authority: Citing "revisionist experts" or self-taught researchers (like Fred Leuchter or David Irving) who lack relevant credentials or whose work has been legally and academically discredited for fraud and bias.
3. Dishonest Behavior and Rhetorical Tactics
The thread exhibits several behaviors intended to deceive or manipulate the reader:
- Moving the Goalposts: Whenever a specific claim is debunked (e.g., regarding the existence of gas chambers at a particular camp), the discourse immediately shifts to a different camp or a different technicality, ensuring the "hoax" conclusion is never actually at risk of being falsified.
- Misrepresentation of Sources: Quoting mainstream historians or Jewish leaders out of context to make it appear as though they are "admitting" the narrative is false (e.g., misrepresenting changes in the estimated death tolls at Auschwitz as proof of a total fabrication).
- Gish Gallop: Overwhelming the reader with a rapid-fire list of many small, complex, and misleading technical "questions" or "facts." This makes it impossible for a casual reader to debunk every point, creating a false impression of a "mountain of evidence" against the historical record.
- Ad Hominem and Poisoning the Well: Dismissing all mainstream historical evidence as "propaganda" or "Zionist lies" before it is even examined, thereby insulating the thread's participants from any contradictory information.
Summary
The thread is less a discussion and more an exercise in motivated reasoning. It uses the appearance of "critical thinking" and "scientific inquiry" to mask a predetermined ideological conclusion. By focusing on perceived inconsistencies and ignoring the broader context, the thread creates an alternative reality that rewards participants for their "special knowledge" while isolating them from historical facts.
What are your thoughts about the fact that Thies Christophersen was stationed at Raisko , an agricultural sub-camp located approximately 3 kilometers from the main Auschwitz I camp and even further from the Birkenau extermination site (Auschwitz II) where the primary gas chambers were located? Any relevancy, please?
As someone who has probably (?) read the book and deemed it useful to post here, what do you think of this AI analysis of it below please?
Based on the book by Carlo Mattogno (the table of contents and introduction you provided) and the standard critiques of his work by forensic historians, here are the primary fallacies utilized in his argumentation.
1. The "Impossibility" Fallacy (Technical vs. Practical)
Mattogno frequently uses "thermodynamic calculations" or "ventilation rates" to argue that the gassing and cremation processes were physically impossible.
- The Fallacy: He applies modern, civilian safety standards (like OSHA) to an improvised Nazi killing facility.
- The Reality: He argues that the gas would have taken hours to clear safely. However, historical evidence shows that the SS used gas masks and forced the Sonderkommando (inmate workers) to enter the rooms immediately to clear bodies, disregarding the health or lives of the workers. His "impossibility" relies on the assumption that the Nazis followed strict safety protocols, which they did not.
2. The "Genetic Fallacy" (Witness Dismissal)
In Chapter III ("The Witnesses"), Mattogno labels survivor and SS testimonies as "black propaganda."
- The Fallacy: He dismisses evidence based entirely on its origin (the survivors) rather than the substance of the claims.
- The Reality: He claims witnesses are "extremely vague" or "contradictory." While witnesses often vary on minor details (like the exact number of ceiling holes), historians point out that their core claims regarding the function of the room are corroborated by independent SS confessions (like Pery Broad's) and original blueprints.
3. The "Straw Man" of Reconstruction
Mattogno spends significant time (Chapter VI) "exposing" that the chimney and ceiling holes in Krema I were added after the war.
- The Fallacy: He attacks a claim that mainstream historians do not actually make. He frames the restoration as a "fraudulent attempt" to invent history.
- The Reality: The Auschwitz Museum has always acknowledged that Krema I is a memorial restoration. When the SS converted the building into an air-raid shelter in 1944, they demolished the chimney and sealed the holes. After the war, the museum restored them to their 1941 positions based on original blueprints and physical traces on the roof. Mattogno treats a documented restoration as if it were a "secret hoax" he uncovered.
4. False Analogy (The "Flimsy Door" Argument)
Mattogno, following other deniers like ZĂŒndel and Leuchter, compares the doors at Auschwitz to those used in American execution chambers.
- The Fallacy: This is a false analogy. He argues that because the doors in Auschwitz weren't high-pressure, airtight steel doors like those in a 1980s US prison, they couldn't have been used for gas.
- The Reality: Homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz I were improvised. Zyklon B releases gas slowly from pellets; it does not require a high-pressure seal to be lethal in an enclosed room. The "flimsy" doors he cites were often the air-raid shelter doors installed in 1944, not the original gas-tight doors (GastĂŒren) specified in the 1941 invoices.
5. Cherry-Picking Technical Documents
Mattogno analyzes the Topf & Söhne ventilation plans (Chapter II) to argue the fans were only for "morgues."
- The Fallacy: He ignores the context of "evolutionary documentation."
- The Reality: Blueprints often used standard labels (Leichenhalle / Morgue) even as the purpose of the rooms changed. Mattogno ignores "criminal traces" in the documentsâsuch as the 1943 telegrams from the construction office mentioning "gas-tight doors" and "ventilation for the Gaskeller"âby arguing they must mean something else (like delousing), even when the location makes that impossible.
6. The "Missing Blueprints" Fallacy (Argument from Ignorance)
Mattogno argues that since there is no single blueprint labeled "Homicidal Gas Chamber," the gassings didn't happen.
- The Fallacy: He assumes that a regime attempting to hide its crimes (evidenced by the Aktion 1005 body-burning operations and the destruction of the Birkenau crematoria) would leave a paper trail with explicit, non-coded titles.
- The Reality: Forensic historians look at the convergence of evidence: why a morgue (which should be cold) was equipped with a heating system (to speed up gas release), why it had "introduction columns," and why the SS ordered "gas-tight" versions of standard architectural features.
By focusing on narrow technical details and ignoring the vast body of corroborating documentation, Mattogno builds a case that appears scientific but relies on dismissing any evidence that contradicts his desired conclusion.
Is this a book that you recommend that we read and what are the top 5 arguments in this book that you wish to teach us?
And have you checked what other sources are saying about them, please?
Donât forget the Red Cross were visiting the camp throughout the war, any decption by the Nazis would imply the Red Cross were also in on it, which is of course possible.
And of course the 6 million figure had been pushed many times prior to WW2:
Ten proofs against Six Million Jews murdered in âthe Holocaustâ
â2. Jewish-stated numbers of Jews in the World before and after the War
An approach based on the total number of Jews in the world neither comes near to 'Six Million' murdered Jews.
We assess the numbers of Jews in the world again on the basis of unsuspected Jewish sources: the World Almanac, featuring information from the American Jewish Committee and the Statistical Bureau of the Jewish Synagogue Council of America.
Before the war:
World Almanac 1929 (p. 727): 15,630,000
National Council of Churches USA 1930: 15,600,000
World Almanac 1936 (p. 748): 15,753,633
World Almanac 1938 (p. 510): 15,748,091
During the war:
American Jewish Congress Council of Synagogues 1939 15,600,000
World Almanac 1940 (p. 129): 15,319,359
World Almanac 1942 (p. 849): 15,192,089
After the war:
World Almanac 1947: (p. 748): 15,688,259
World Almanac 1948: (p. 849): 15,763,630
As shown, the numbers of Jews before and during the war, are mostly congruent and stable. Therefore, one may take as a fact 15.7 million Jews around the world shortly before the War, with a slight decline during the War.
Immediately after the War, in 1947, the same sources reported 444,271 Jews more as in 1940! The number of the Council of Synagogues too is 163,630 higher than that of 1939!
According to the World Almanac of 1947, the number of Jews in 1939 was 15,688,259. On February 22, 1948 the Jewish owned New York Times, gave the Jewish population of Palestine as 600-700,000; following the lowest number, it results in 16,288,259 Jews Worldwide. Nearly 600,000 more than before the war! So, Jewish statements from 1948 show nothing of 6 million murdered Jews."
Itâs claimed, that the World Almanac noted that it was still using old data from 1938 up till 1948 that had not been updated until 1949, due to post war disruptions. The world almanac argument however, doesnât mention that it became updated and draws itâs conclusions without looking past the 1948 edition. -
âThe claim misrepresents World Almanac figures. Post-war editions (1945-1948) used outdated 1938 data. The 1949 edition lists 11,266,600 Jews worldwide, revising 1939 to 16,643,120âshowing a ~5.4 million drop.
The World Almanac used outdated pre-war estimates (~15.3â15.7 million) in editions through 1948 due to lack of reliable wartime/postwar data.
Key editions showing the discrepancy and update:
-
1938â1942: ~15.3â15.7 million (pre-war baseline, repeated early in/after war).
-
1947â1948: Still ~15.7 million (outdated figures persisted).
-
1949: Revised to 11,266,600 (current estimate), with 1939 retroactively adjusted to 16,643,120 â showing ~5.4 million decline.
This revision reflects the Holocaust's impact once better data became available. The "no drop" claim relies on pre-1949 outdated numbers.â
If you then have a look at what is claimed to be the census data up till present day, it shows that there still arenât as many jews in the world to day as in 1939:
âCensus data and reliable estimates (e.g., American Jewish Year Book, Sergio DellaPergola, Jewish Virtual Library) show:
-
1945: ~11 million (post-Holocaust low).
-
1950: ~11.3 million.
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1960: ~12.1 million.
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1970: ~12.6 million.
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1980: ~12.8 million.
-
1990: ~12.9 million.
-
2000: ~13.3 million.
-
2010: ~14.0 million.
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2020: ~15.1â15.2 million.
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2024â2025: ~15.7â15.8 million (core Jewish population).
The population remains below the 1939 pre-war peak of ~16.6 million, with slow recovery due to low fertility, assimilation, and Holocaust losses. Most Jews now live in Israel (~7.2â7.4 million) and the US (~6.3â7.5 million).â
It is claimed that the World Almanac editions from 1945 to 1948 explicitly noted they used 1938 figures as "the last available data" due to wartime/postwar disruptions (might be worth looking for a pdf that shows it if one can be found). The 1949 edition revised to 11,266,600 (with 1939 adjusted to 16,643,120), reflecting updated information.
Here is a PDF scan of the 1949 edition, which shows a drop in numbers for Europe (Jewish population numbers on p. 204):
Of course the Jews are going to lie about the population figures, it has been worth billions of dollars to themâŠ.to think they wouldnât and that they would try and cover up discrepancies is naive.
I recommend a thought experiment: for a second, clear the mind of pre-conceived ideas about this matter. If we don't focus on the the labels, the talking heads, and all the baggage we usually bring to this topic, then I believe the points below make perfect sense.
They show that things are not always as cut-and-dry or simple as someone might strive to convince you. Itâs actually incredibly easy to get led astrayâor even hypnotizedâby a few well-polished, "convincing" articles that keep us looking at the surface. But when you really dig in, ponder, you start to see a much deeper, more calculated, and frankly, more unsettling layer to the whole thing that usually gets ignored.
The "Holocaust Deprogramming Course" and similar materials found in the works of Mattogno and Rudolf rely on a propaganda technique called context-stripping. By isolating a single physical facilityâlike an art studio or a soccer fieldâfrom the systemic reality of the camp, they attempt to create a logical paradox: "Why would a death factory have an art studio?"
The answer is found in the dual-nature of Auschwitz: it was simultaneously a massive slave-labor empire (designed to exploit life) and an assembly-line extermination site (designed to end it).
Here is a breakdown of the tactics used in the "Deprogramming Course" and the hard-hitting counters to them.
Tactic 1: The "Universal Experience" Fallacy
The Denier Approach: "There was an art studio and a theater. Therefore, life in Auschwitz was culturally rich."
The Counter: This tactic assumes the experience of 10 "privileged" prisoners represents the experience of the 1.1 million who were murdered.
- The Math of Scale: Imagine a city of 100,000 people. If 10 people are allowed to sit in an art studio while 99,990 are being starved, beaten, and gassed, the art studio is not a "facility"âit is a statistical anomaly used as a propaganda mask.
- The Artistic Purpose: Art studios didn't exist for "creative expression." Inmates were forced to produce portraits for SS officers to send to their families, or to create detailed medical drawings of "anomalies" for Dr. Mengeleâs files. The art studio was an extension of the exploitation, not a hobby shop.
Tactic 2: The "Humanitarian Paradox"
The Denier Approach: "Why build a hospital if the goal is to kill everyone? Death camps don't need doctors."
The Counter: This ignores the Nazi concept of "Vernichtung durch Arbeit" (Extermination through Labor).
- The Human Repair Shop: Auschwitz III (Monowitz) was a multi-billion dollar industrial project for I.G. Farben. To keep the factory running, the SS needed a "repair shop" for their human tools. A prisoner was kept alive only as long as they could yield a profit.
- The Gateway to Death: The hospital was the primary site for Selections. If a prisoner in the hospital did not recover in 48â72 hours, they were "selected" for the gas chambers. The hospital wasn't a place of healing; it was a triage center for the crematoria.
Tactic 3: The "Orchestra as Luxury" Tactic
The Denier Approach: "They had orchestras playing music! It was practically a resort."
The Counter: This is perhaps the most grotesque distortion in the "Deprogramming Course."
- The Metronome of Slavery: Orchestras played at the gate of Auschwitz I to provide a rhythm for the slave labor columns. It ensured prisoners marched at a specific speed, making them easier to count and preventing them from collapsing or slowing down the "workflow."
- The Deception of the Ramp: At Birkenau, music was played to keep new arrivals calm as they stepped off the trains. If you hear a violin, you don't expect a gas chamber. The orchestra was a tool of mass deception used to prevent 2,000 people from rioting before they reached the doors of the Krema.
The Thought Experiment: The "Dual-Reality" of Auschwitz
To counter a "believer" of these courses, turn their logic around with this thought experiment:
"Imagine a massive high-security prison today. It has a library, a gymnasium, and a dental clinic. Does the existence of the library prove that the prison doesn't have a 'Death Row' or an execution chamber? Of course not. One is for the management of the living; the other is for the processing of the dead."
Apply this to Auschwitz:
Auschwitz was a city. It had a "neighborhood" for the perpetrators (SS barracks with a pool and canteen), a "neighborhood" for the slave laborers (brick barracks with a hospital and a post office to send censored postcards home for propaganda), and a "neighborhood" for the industrial-scale murder (Birkenauâs gas chambers).
Revisionists point at the perpetrator's swimming pool and claim it proves the victim's gas chamber is a lie.
Why these "Amenities" were useful to a Death Camp
- Administrative Plausibility: The Nazi bureaucracy needed to maintain a facade for the German Red Cross and neutral nations. If they could point to a post office or a hospital, they could deflect international pressure.
- Looting Efficiency: Facilities like the dental clinic weren't for the prisoners' health; they were for the recovery of assets. Gold teeth were a primary source of wealth for the SS. You need a dental chair and professional tools to "harvest" that gold efficiently.
- SS Morale: The theaters and canteens were for the guards. Keeping SS men "entertained" was a priority to prevent them from suffering "psychological distress" while they supervised the daily murder of thousands of families.
- Biological Records: The "nurseries" and "art studios" were often adjuncts to medical experimentation. They existed so the Nazis could study the "biology" of those they intended to eventually wipe out.
The "Holocaust Deprogramming Course" tries to sell a version of history where a diving board negates a gas chamber. Itâs like arguing that because a slaughterhouse has a ventilation system and a clean floor, the cows aren't actually being turned into beef.
The "luxury" of Auschwitz was the grease on the gears of the killing machine. It kept the guards happy, the prisoners confused, and the outside world blinded just long enough to murder a terrible amount of people.
A further thought. You seem to believe everything your Government and the people in authority tell you. Certainly on the moon landings, 9-11, global warming and the Holocaust, this is the case. It seems in Cybe World the world is a very honest, decent place, not ruled by Satan at all, or that satan has developed a very honest world. Perhaps in Cybe World Satan is not the father of lies at all, but the fountain of truthâŠ..This isnât Hell after all, itâs Heaven. Even the Synagogue of Satan donât lie in Cybe WorldâŠâŠ
There really is not much point in discussing anything on this forum, I should go back to reading the MSM.
Matthew 7:6
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
I will be giving this place a rest for a while. It does nothing for me. If I wanted to argue with AI, I would use it. I donât.
I had hoped that we could discuss this and other subjects one point at a time, rather than assuming, claiming, and building an image of me (or past versions of me) and attacking that. Arguing against an assumed persona instead of a presented fact is a waste of time.
That's quite an assumption. I've learned that assuming things is not a wise thing to do. Things are not always as they appear and we should not judge according to that.
Do you really believe that the messages that you've posted in this thread are holy pearls and that I'm like a swine trampling on them?
I understand. You're very welcome to post, but if illogical, improbable, or otherwise erroneous (false) materials posted by you, or anyone else, I believe we should be able to point them out and discuss them with you.
In times like these I believe that re-reading what I believe are divinely inspired, forum guidelines is helpful.
If you feel they are at fault and can be improved then suggestions are very welcome. They might be missing some helpful scriptures, for instance. Thank you.
Myth of the Six Million, by David Hoggan.pdf (181.8 . KB)
THE SECRET HOLOCAUST
by Eustace Mullins
The Secret Holocaust, Eustace Mullins.pdf (60.0 . KB)
THE HOLOCAUST EXPLAINED
By Eustace Mullins
The Holocaust Explained, Eustace Mullins.pdf (28.3 . KB)
Again I ask you:-
Are these books that you believe are truthfull and not lies and recommend that we all read?
What are the most damning and solid proofs in them that you wish to direct our attention to or does one need to read them all, some 409+145+146+492 pages?
Can you say something about them?
Or what are your reasons for posting them, please?
Educational purposes.